Cameron and a Scottish Referendum

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FionaK
view post Posted on 9/1/2012, 21:43




www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/09/s..._medium=twitter

David Cameron was all concerned about me recently: he is appalled by the anxiety I am experiencing because of the lack of a date for a scottish referendum on independence. He wants to help me by making the referendum legally binding, and by bringing it forward so I will know where I stand all the sooner.

In reality he wants to control the timing and the question posed, and to do that he wants to overturn the mandate which the SNP have by dint of a big win at the the last election. The SNP said they would hold a referendum in the second half of this parliament and most of us think it is lkely to be in 2014. Alex Salmond is thinking about having more than one question and that seems fair: many people want more power devolved but not full independence: there is nothing wrong with having that as an option on the ballot.

Today Cameron seems to be surprised by the reaction to his intervention in Scotland and he is running about saying he is only helping: and has my best interests at heart. In a pig's eye. He also mentioned that uncertainty is harming the economy and pointed out that one of the banks recommended that people should not invest in Scottish infrastructure because of it. Well it might come as some surprise to Mr Cameron: but the views of banks and financiers do not settle many questions: certainly not this one. Mr Cameron is a spineless tool of his rich friends and the idea that they are not, or should not be, the only power in the land is beyond his comprehension, presumably. I am not unaware that the big corporations may well try to blackmail or punish an independent scotland into toeing the neoliberal line: and it is possible we may not be able to resist if we do achieve independence: the difference is that we might try. And that is good enough for me.

Cameron is an arrogant, insulated tory with one MP in Scotland and no mandate here at all. None. The response of most people here seems to be the same as mine: "what part of get lost do you not understand?".

Edited by FionaK - 9/9/2012, 13:09
 
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Vorgoeth
view post Posted on 9/1/2012, 22:20




I can't say I've been following the situation, only gathering details here and there from people discussing it, but my impression is Cameron and his people are noticing their control of the British populance slipping; and they're getting desperate. The United Kingdom is falling apart, and they're doing all they can to misdirect, confuse, and manipulate to try to maintain their power. The idea of the British Empire still lives, from top to bottom of the social structure. Having lived as an outsider, an objective observer in England for a few years, I noticed this wherever I looked. I can't help but think it's intentional, to keep people believing in the government's power even as it is dying before their eyes.

This, I think, has been going on long enough the perpetrators, whoever they may be, have begun believing in their own lie. And a true believer may be hard to shake of their conviction, but worse; is hard to ignore. The... less insightful of the people will be swayed to their side, but the others will be isolated from them, and they will become the enemy. And the former group, I daresay, outnumbers the latter.

That may or may not relate to Scotland, I really don't know. Just two cents of mine (and I have a lot of cents).
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 9/1/2012, 22:35




There is no certainty that Scotland will vote for independence, Vorgoeth. Many people, and I am one of them, have been driven to support it because we cannot get the kind of society we want while tied to England. But many others do not see it that way, and the spread of opinion is very wide indeed. That is as it should be, because the pro's and cons are very complicated. What we need is a grown-up debate about the whole issue, and that cannot happen if we are stampeded into an early vote: nor can it honestly reflect the range of aspiration if the question is too tightly defined, as Cameron wants.

What puzzles me is why people like Cameron care what we decide. According to at least some of the english commentators we are a drain on their resources (subsidy junkies) and if that is the case they should be glad to be rid of us, should that be the outcome. It is true that it would represent a reduction in the number of people they govern, but there are many countries smaller than england and I really do not see why that is a concern.

It may be that it is a matter of sentiment/emotion for them: but that is not really a good reason for a politician to take a stance. I am not seeing any rational argument, though
 
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Vorgoeth
view post Posted on 9/1/2012, 22:54




People like Cameron care what you decide because you're deciding it yourselves, and that's a threat to a government as concerned with control as the British one. If Scotland can decide for themselves, it sets an example, a precedence. Cameron is trying to force you into a decision you don't wholly want, or a poor decision, thereby allowing them to reassert their control. If you get to pick the best possible answer for you in a question like this, whatever the answer may be, it shows you don't need the sovreignity of the UK. And I think this applies whether you end up choosing independence or not. The ends are irrelevant, the means are all that matters in politics.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 11/1/2012, 09:31




I think you may be right. It is quite interesting listening to how this particular issue is now being argued. Cameron and his supporters really want it to be either/or and that is in line with their approach to a great many complex things. Either/or is what you say to children in sweet shops because they can't cope with too many options. That is how Cameron and his ilk see the electorate.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 11/1/2012, 18:04




Milliband and Cameron: in agreement on the Scottish referendum. It is odd: Labour needs Scotland and the Tories would have a permanent majority on current showing if Scotland left the union. Seems that tories have some principles maybe. Can't explain it otherwise, unless they do indeed think it might give other parts of the UK ideas

At present they are saying Scotland does not have the legal power to hold a referendum. Poppycock. It is true it will not be binding legally: that is utterly irrelevant. There is nothing at all to stop SNP from holding one: and they have a manifesto committment to doing so which they MUST honour. Nobody here is confused about it, but neither are they unaware that the outcome will be carried through legaly thereafter. If the vote is for independence and the UK tries to block that there will be UDI: so that is not an option. In reality the argument will be about how much of the stuff that is not nailed down will be removed in the subsequent hard negotiation. And the certainty we will get a poor deal out of that is one of the reasons many scots will not vote for independence: far from being unaware of economic issues and problems it is the foundation of much hesitation.

That pair are talking about the need to make the case for the union: it as been made and lived for centuries: it is not like we don't know what that is like: we do not know what independence will be like: and we would like to talk about that on our own terms and in our own time. They should butt out while we do that. I am amazed that Milliband does not realise that, even if Cameron is too insulated to be aware how this is playing here. It does not really matter, in truth: we are not children, to be swayed by the date of the vote (as the cheeky bastards suggested at the weekend) or by pique over their arrogance in interefering in this ( though that arrogance itself is a big part of the problem and this reinforces that perception: it does not generate it) We vote on grown up issues, and they won't include concern about what the flag will look like: which they are also discussing as I write.
 
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view post Posted on 11/1/2012, 20:08
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 11/1/2012, 18:04) 
there will be UDI

Pardon? What's that?
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 11/1/2012, 20:09




Unilateral Declaration of Independence. Sorry :(
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 19/1/2012, 19:36




QUOTE
In reality the argument will be about how much of the stuff that is not nailed down will be removed in the subsequent hard negotiation

I said that upthread. Today we have a prime example. Apparently it would cost a lot of money to get rid of Faslane, and the government thinks we should pay at least part of the cost of that. I have never heard anything more ridiculous in all my born days.
 
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view post Posted on 23/1/2012, 22:09
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What you didn't know, is that the Scottish-British Union is like a marriage, with all the responsibilities and characteristics of that analogy...

It's all or nothing, Scotland! Either you break up now, or you will re-learn to love this marriage like you did 300 years ago.

At least, according to this former BBC world journalist at Al Jazeerah (who I'm pretty sure is given a platform there by accident):

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2...1310377835.html
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 23/1/2012, 22:15




www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPi3xtQqd8&feature=related

The polish people know how much we loved this marriage 300 years ago: how come the english don't?
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 29/1/2012, 01:53




I think Mr Cameron's intervention may be directly related to the fact that for the first time a poll shows 51% support for independence in Scotland.

A small poll and I doubt it reflects a settled view: but it did use the question which the SNP say they want to use

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/298664...ck-independence
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 16/5/2012, 00:24




This is the reason I am in favour of full independence: a jumped up parish council just can't deliver what we want

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18078260

As the article shows, we cannot implement the kinds of policy we want because the power over things like benefits and money has not been devolved. The very limited mitigation we can effect is nothing like what is necessary
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 16/5/2012, 22:12




http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ref...ndence.17599798

Mr Cameron is graciously going to allow us to choose when to have the referendum. Sweet guy :)
 
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55 replies since 9/1/2012, 21:43   1211 views
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