Competition

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FionaK
view post Posted on 20/12/2011, 15:24




It is generally argued that competition is good for consumers and that it is very important to ensure that free competition is maintained in the market place because it leads to the best results for everyone. It is recognised that producers tend to want to minimise competition because it is in their interest to do that: and so there is quite widespread agreement that there should be laws against monopolies and unfair barriers to market entry etc. Where there is a natural monopoly many people accept that competition does not work and there are various answers to that: for the neoliberal the answer is to regulate so that there is a "market" no matter how artificially created and sustained (which is done by government and so is a rather curious hybrid of an idea): others think that essentials which are naturally a monopoly should be state owned and thus a mixed economy is desirable.

I find the whole notion of competition a bit difficult to see in a positive light and I am not sure whether that is because of the logic behind it, or because of its failure in practice.

At the weekend I went to buy soap powder and this was in my mind. The first problem with competition is that I have no real choice of supermarket. In all directions from my house the nearest supermarket is a Morrisons. I am not counting Waitrose because, although it is a supermarket of sorts, it is, and promotes itself as, an upmarket shop, much like M&S. Mainly it sells expensive food, and the other products are secondary. It is relatively new in my area, having taken over a Morrisons which was too small for that company's strategy. Anyway, in terms of choice of shop I can go to Morrisons or Morrisons. Or I can go to the small independent corner shops or to Waitrose. Or I can drive for several miles to get to some other supermarket chain. This is not because I live in a peculiar place: my mum lives in a different town and she can go to Sainsbury's or Sainsbury's. This is the reality in this country for very many people. There is no real competition between the big supermarkets because of how they choose to locate themselves. There is some change with the introduction of the small "metro markets" but they are not priced like big supermarkets: they are priced much like corner shops ( with flashy promotions as an inticement) though they presumably benefit from economies of scale in terms of purchasing power and centralised distribution: if I am going to pay those prices and use several different shops to get what I need I would rather support the small independent shops: maybe that is just me. But for things like soap powder I do not want to pay extra and I have been persuaded that on balance the supermarkets are cheaper (not actually checked that but I do know that for the things I buy there the supermarkets do vary in price and Morrisons is middle range: Asda and Lidl and Aldi are cheaper: Sainsbury's is dearer). In theory I should be able to choose any of these: in practice I can't.

So I went to Morrisons. I was then faced with a choice. I could buy Persil or Surf or Lux or Ariel or Daz or Bold or Fairy or Ecover or Morrisons own brand: and all of those came in the form or powder, biological, tablets, gels etc. So I am very well equipped with consumer power, which is one argument adduced in favour of competition.

Snag is that 7 out of 9 of these are produced by Unilever or Proctor and Gamble. I suspect that Morrison's own brand is too: but I can't prove that. I don't know who makes ecover. Does not look like free competiton to me: looks like oligopoly disguised by branding. So how am I getting the benefits of competiton in terms of price or choice, exactly?
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 30/12/2011, 16:23




I have been having another think about competition. What struck me first is that a quick dig about does not really produce a list of the claimed benefits of competition: it seems to be accepted without question that they are there. So to think about it you have to really second guess the argument: I find that really difficult to do. But here goes.

1. Competition leads to innovation as companies try to make a better product (or the same product cheaper) so that people will buy theirs, and not their competitors.

Well that seems to be the theory. Is it true? As outlined above I do not think there is much evidence for that. At least in established markets it seems that companies do not innovate in any meaningful sense. They do produce gimmicks. So now I can have soap powder or tablets or gels or whatever. But they are all designed to make clothes clean using a washing machine. I see absolutely no benefit of using one form rather than another. I do not think people were unhappy when there was only one form: and if gel was better at getting clothes clean then in theory all the other forms should lose market share and disappear: but they don't.

What is true is that powder allows me to use less than tablets or gel. I think that is what "innovation" is all about. It increases profit by making me use more of the product: not by making the product better.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 1/1/2012, 13:01




Another argument in favour of competition seems to be that it will foster "efficiency" as a direct consequence of the search for profit. That makes no sense to me either. As I noted above all the supermarkets near me are run by the same firm. That is the most "efficient" for them, as a moment's reflection will show. Let us suppose there was true competition. For that to happen I would have to have a choice of supermarket within reasonable travelling distance of my home. Those different supermarkets would have to offer a full range of goods at the best price they can manage and I would be free to pick where to spend my money.

If you think about it what that means is that there has to be duplication. But duplication is not "efficient": it is a waste of resource. That is why there is no choice, I think. Competition is a source of inefficiency, in and of itself. The supermarkets know this and they act on it. So why do the rest of us pretend otherwise?
 
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ex nihilo
view post Posted on 3/1/2012, 15:51




Sounds a bit like the theory of 'reppresive desublimination' I've read about. Forgot his name but he states a lot of the things you just have. He was a marxist critic of capatilism in genral uf that is any help.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 3/1/2012, 16:12




Hadn't heard the term before: I am opposed to folk who write porridge rather than a natural language. There seems to be some dispute about what the term actually means (guy's name is Marcuse, btw) and that is the problem with jargon.

Having said that I think the concept is very useful, even with those limitations: it is certainly expressive of one of the mechanisms of consumer capitalism and we are short of characterisation which help us to think. So I am grateful for you drawing this to my attention.

So far as I can tell so far, it is more to do with consumerism than competition, though. And it is a bit off topic for this thread for that reason. If you know about this then it would be great if you started a thread about it because I do not think this is a well known term (though it might just be that I have not come across it)
 
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ex nihilo
view post Posted on 3/1/2012, 18:17




My apoligies, it seemed relevant to me. It was a certain part of the theory which said capatilism narrows choises. I found it relevant to one of your examples. Though there does seem to be (for me at least) a correlation between consumerism and compition. Both are conected.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 3/1/2012, 20:40




They are connected, ex-nihilo: I am sorry if I suggested they were not. All of the topics in this section are connected. I am probably a little self indulgent here, but what I have been trying to do is take some of the big words used in economics and try to understand what the arguments are. To do that I have separated them, artificially, because I have the feeling that it is the slithering about between them which makes them seem complicated, and which shuts people out of the debate. The decisions made on the basis of economic ideas affect us all: I think it is important to try to have a hard look at the basis for them. This might not be the best way to do it but it seems to be helping me to learn a bit.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 5/1/2012, 11:57




Another supposed benefit of competition is that it will produce excellence: people will be put on their mettle and will strive harder. I think that is absurd, to be honest. It is seldom questioned these days and no matter what we are talking about from retail to health care it is assumed that increased competition will lead to better outcomes

www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...success/250564/

So I was interested to come across this article about Finnish education. Finland is consistently amongst the top performers when international comparisons are made of educational outcomes. This followed a big reform of the system when the policy aim was "equity", and was openly espoused. It flies in the face of the predominant narrative and ought to serve to re-open this question: but as the article notes, the US (and the UK I would warrant) do not wish to know. They would like better quality education: but they like private profit and competition more, it seems.

There are no private schools in Finland. There are no league tables and few national tests. There is no obsession with "accountability" and the Finnish minister quoted summed up a great deal of what I was trying to get at in the accountability thread when he said

QUOTE
Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted

That is beautifully expressed, and says something I took hundreds of words to say.

The Finns were more concerned with equity than with producing "stars". The fact this resulted in excellent education was apparently something of a surprise

QUOTE
Since the 1980s, the main driver of Finnish education policy has been the idea that every child should have exactly the same opportunity to learn, regardless of family background, income, or geographic location. Education has been seen first and foremost not as a way to produce star performers, but as an instrument to even out social inequality.

In the Finnish view, as Sahlberg describes it, this means that schools should be healthy, safe environments for children. This starts with the basics. Finland offers all pupils free school meals, easy access to health care, psychological counseling, and individualized student guidance.

In fact, since academic excellence wasn't a particular priority on the Finnish to-do list, when Finland's students scored so high on the first PISA survey in 2001, many Finns thought the results must be a mistake. But subsequent PISA tests confirmed that Finland -- unlike, say, very similar countries such as Norway -- was producing academic excellence through its particular policy focus on equity.

I think that what is true in education is true in many fields. Competition does not work if what you want to achieve is good education or good health or good social care and on and on. Yet that is anathema to the ruling ideology.

Edited by FionaK - 23/1/2013, 13:51
 
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ex nihilo
view post Posted on 5/1/2012, 20:07




QUOTE (FionaK @ 4/1/2012, 03:40) 
They are connected, ex-nihilo: I am sorry if I suggested they were not.

No Problem.
 
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view post Posted on 23/1/2012, 20:40
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I read a book a couple of days ago which linked Darwinian theory to Smith.* Linking Darwin's theories to any social issue has never been a particularly good idea before - has to do with the fact that we are not finches, or any other wild animal. Indeed, derivatives of Darwinian theory have often been used to defend horrible policies, most notably ethnic cleansing and eugenics.

The idea here in this book was that nature achieves good solutions to problems on its own, simply by a few principles, as Darwin described them: Scarcity, imperfect procreation, and data retention. You need scarcity because there has to be a selection procedure: if there are endless resources, there will be endless solutions, many of them far from optimal. In order for the system to become "adaptive", it needs to have some optimum to strive for; that optimum depends on the conditions of the environment, to which the thing has to adapt. I will come back to that later.

Imperfect procreation means that in the process of multiplication, there need to occur "errors". Faults in the DNA, in natural theory, produce anomalies which may or may not outperform the other creatures in some slight way, and if there is enough scarcity, the inferior creatures without the "error" will slowly be replaced, over several generations, by their more successful peers.

Lastly, there has to be data retention, which means that solutions of one generation must pass on to the next. In natural theory, we have found DNA to do this job of retaining all useful "errors", adding gradually but surely to the complexity and adaptiveness of creatures.

The author recognized similar patterns in economies. First, there is scarcity on the planet. We can't have everything we want. So, there is also a scarcity of income. Income is used to distribute the resources we have, and the products we make with them, according to individual merit. More merit is more income is more products.

But there's also the producers, who have products to sell to people with non-infinite incomes. So the producers are also battling other producers over a scarce resource: the consumer's wallet.

Prices and wages in this system would fulfil the function of data retention. And "errors" would be any experiments with setting them higher or lower. Presumably, it would take into account product quality and job quality as well, somewhere. But they are also steady until someone messes around with them. And once we have these principles in place, all we need to wait for are millions of consumers making billions of choices on whether or not they are going to buy those products. And similarly, we will have thousands of producers making millions of choices on wages. And if we wait for a while, it will reach a near-optimal solution, because the laws of natural selection make sure the parameters converge to a solution on their own devices: no central plan is needed.

That is a conclusion that Hayek would surely subscribe to, and probably he is inspired by Darwin. In fact, Hayek says you can only mess it up by trying to centrally meddle with these natural laws of economies.

Well, and those natural laws require multiple types of finches to compete for resources. One of them will be more adapted to its environment and survive the selection process. I guess in economics, higher adaptation translates to "more efficient resource distribution", where efficient is entirely unclear in its meaning. And it is interesting that this is probably all about distribution, not use: focusing on more efficient use would be good given that the earth's population is growing, while many resources are finite. But whether it is one or the other aside...

It is clear that anywhere these naturalist ideas are introduced - simply by stripping away all centralized regulations - the result seems to be that "efficient" becomes defined as "favouring the rich". It suggests that natural selection is not that great at providing the right type of order for economic and political questions. The reason, I think, is quite nicely explained by this story I heard one time (I think in a discussion about regulation on the BBC): It is required to wear helmets during ice hockey matches. When polled, the vast majority of players thought that was a good idea in general: you can get seriously injured at those speeds when you fall. However, when asked if they would wear the helmet if they had a choice, many of them would say they would not wear it, because it hinders movement and sight: you have some competitive advantage playing without a helmet. Other players would choose not to wear the helmet if other players on the field were also not wearing a helmet: they do not like to be at competitive disadvantage. Soon after you'd make a helmet a choice in ice hockey matches, you would get loads of easily preventable skull injuries and deaths. Here we see that top-down regulation is favoured, because everybody gains from it: Not getting badly injured is arguably better than winning an extra game or 2, because you could turn your head a fraction of a second faster - assuming that the opposition didn't discover this advantage yet.

Since, in economics, there is no evidence of the natural selection approach converging to an acceptable solution state, there's absolutely no reason to believe Hayek.** There really is a reason we invented politics.

*I was reading "Emergence" by Steven Johnson, and it quotes "The Nature of Economies" by Jane Jacobs: "Adam Smith, back in 1775, identified prices of goods and rates of wages as feedback information, although of course he didn't call it that because the word feedback was not in the vocabulary at the time. But he understood the idea.... In his sober way, Smith was clearly excited about the marvellous form of order he'd discovered, as well he should have been. He was far ahead of naturalists in grasping the principle of negative feedback controls."

** In fact, evolutionary systems rarely outperform reasoned thinking. For example, there is an evolutionary selection simulator that produces cars. Boxcar2d http://boxcar2d.com/index.html
If you look at the high scores, most of the top-performing cars are manual adaptations of the random vehicles created by the natural selection procedure, or they are entirely hand-crafted. That, or they take an insane amount of generations to get near hand-crafted results. That being said, I love the simulator and I'm a fan of evolutionary systems. They produce surprising results and it is fun to watch something evolve from extremely unlikely to pretty efficient at whatever the task is you assign them to do.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 24/1/2012, 01:09




Evolution does not produce optimal outcomes: it produces entities which survive. That is all. One look at the human body will tell you that anybody could have designed it better, with just a little thought.
 
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Stafal
view post Posted on 24/1/2012, 04:20




I think the competition is only good for the companies not so much the consumer. The companies are trying to make the most money. Which generally means selling the consumer crap. So rather than compete to do something better, it's really a competition do do something worse. =/

So I suppose 'competition' has become something a little bit counter productive. Though I suppose it also depends where it's applied. But still even in a competitive area like technology, advancements are made and yet the ideal is still who can make a cheaper product that sells well....over the idea of having technology advance and sell quality.

And to use your soap comparison, I think that's got something to do more with tricking the consumer into thinking they have something better than what it really is. XD People are drawn to, pretty packages and neat looking things. Like I've seen those little pouches for dishwashers. They look super cool...and supposedly they clean your dishes better. They look much cooler than a bottle of liquid, which would last you a lot longer, but lookit how pretty those pouches of powder and blue liquid look.

Product design is all about visually appealing to the consumer to get them to buy the item regardless of what the item actually does. Kinda like bottled anything, water, soda, etc. If the bottle looks really interesting there's a good handful of people (I tend to be one of these people) who will pay a higher price because it looked interesting. Which is all another situation of paying for nothing. So that's kinda of where the appeal of 'competition' comes from in the companies eyes. But as a consumer yeah your'e generally not benefiting. XD As far as I can tell.
 
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view post Posted on 24/1/2012, 10:11
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QUOTE (Stafal @ 24/1/2012, 04:20) 
but lookit how pretty those pouches of powder and blue liquid look.

:lol: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF8GhC-T_Mo

QUOTE
Evolution does not produce optimal outcomes: it produces entities which survive. That is all. One look at the human body will tell you that anybody could have designed it better, with just a little thought.

Well, I'd need some time to design it better... A lot of time, in fact. I could maybe make some improvements on the current design, maybe. But in general, it's a pretty impressive product nature devised.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 24/1/2012, 10:59




Did you think so last time you had toothache?
 
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view post Posted on 24/1/2012, 11:05
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 24/1/2012, 10:59) 
Did you think so last time you had toothache?

Did you not think so last time you digested a sandwich?
 
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22 replies since 20/12/2011, 15:24   900 views
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