Europe's emergency aid to Greece, A dual disappointment

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view post Posted on 19/5/2011, 00:16
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"Greece's financial situation is dire. And since they are part of the European pact, that is a pan-European problem. Fearing a major European crisis, the predicament has urged the EU countries and IMF to loan a whopping 110 billion euros in financial aid to Greece. And according to some specialists, another 60 billion is going to have to be added to that.

IMF-top economist Antonio Borges indicated that Greece wouldn't need to "restructure" its 327 billion euro state debt. It can repay its debts by even stronger expenditure cuts and selling its state properties.

Greece has already announced to privatize 50 billion euros worth of state property. According to the IMF, that's not even 20 percent of what they could be selling."

[source: www.nu.nl/economie/2513378/griekse-...kernlanden.html (in dutch)]

These are all staggering numbers and radical proposals... And yet, the Greeks in the streets are not celebrating. On the contrary.

They are protesting the loss of jobs, salary, pensions and the looming price inflations of what used to be public amenities. For we have some experience with privatization now and you have to be well educated to believe prices and taxes go down while service goes up after such a move. This has never happened as far as I know. They are also seeing taxes on fuel, tobacco and alcohol go up, along with their retirement age, and the government has "applied tough new tax evasion regulations". [According to cnn]

But it's really quite scary to see that they now have a 110 billion euro wedge into their economy with the label "privatize!" written on it. This is the kind of aggressive free market approach which has wrecked many a country in history, and they're just implementing it, here, in Europe. This brings South-American situations and many an African 'failed state' story to Europe's doorstep, in my view.

The prime minister of Greece, when inquired on the government’s action to implement the changes and lead the country out of crisis had this to say:
“Obviously Greece is doing its work. Greece is on track. And what we believe is we have to be able to stand on our own two feet. And that’s why we are making changes, innovating in our economy, and we believe this will bring back jobs and security”. [source: www.primeminister.gov.gr/english/20...ess-conference/]

I can't really find where the money is going. But I understand from a Greek friend that it's helping the financial institutions: the banks mainly. That, too, is a familiar tale, and we can see its effects in America. The 'bailed-out' banks have turned record profits, and their managers have seen their salaries multiply drastically. There's money to spend and so you must, as a corporate bank. The risk is now completely negligible, because if anything goes wrong, you file bankruptcy and you're either bailed out again by tax payers across Europe, or you no longer exist, at which point other banks may also collapse and savings disappear and people start dying...

"Heading for a viable economy" they say... I can't say I see that happening just yet?

Edited by Iccarus - 19/5/2011, 01:34
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 19/5/2011, 00:30




Aye: it seems that the answer is "communsim capitalism hasn't failed: it hasn't been tried yet: we must do more of the same!!"

This, more than anything, convinces me that we are in the grip of insanity if you accept the characterisation of that as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 21/5/2011, 18:56




www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13481592

Spain too. The article compares the protests to the uprisings in the middle east. I wonder if the will have the same positive press ...
 
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view post Posted on 22/5/2011, 00:05
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 21/5/2011, 19:56) 
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13481592

Spain too. The article compares the protests to the uprisings in the middle east. I wonder if the will have the same positive press ...

Interesting. It's unlikely they will, in my opinion. Because this might be too close and we can identify with these people (for they are not weird scary "muslims" with their political dictator bosses), which is dangerous. We'll have to keep an eye on it...
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 22/5/2011, 01:44




http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis...te-2628408.html

www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis...ng-2647439.html

This is interesting too. I heard a couple of weeks ago that the EU were exploiting those countries they were "bailing out"(see first link), and it surprised me, because in this country the general thrust of reporting has been that we are helping countries which got themselves in trouble at a time when we can ill afford it, having financial woes of our own. To the extent that this country contibutes to this "help" it now appears that we will make a fat profit from doing so.

This leads me to question the value of the european project: I cannot really see this as cooperative: it looks more like exploitation to me. As far as I know the european "aid" does not come with overt strings about privatisation, as the IMF and world bank loans do: but it is a distinction without a difference for the people of those countries since no alternative plan appears to be on offer.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 22/5/2011, 11:09




I have been having a think about the debt crisis. The first thing that is immediately obvious to me is that I do not understand it. This is odd because gallons of ink have been spilled talking about it in the media. So why do I not have a grasp on what is happening? It seems to me that there are two reasons for this. One is that those who have been lauded as "experts" for many years do not actually have any knowledge on which to base the claim of "expertise". I base this on the fact that those same "experts" have repeatedly destroyed the economies of countries and appear to have learned nothing from the experience (eg Argentina). The second is that we think in too short a time frame. That is a feature of a great many things and I am reminded of Cho En Lai's response to the question whether the French Revolution was a good thing or a bad thing:he said "It is too early to tell".

It is a central tenet of left wing analysis that capitalism will always generate crises. The right wing view is that crises are largely caused by interference in the free market. That is a basic point of disagreement, and it cannot be reconciled. And it is not new. See this article, for example:

http://chestofbooks.com/finance/banking/Ro...is-Of-1893.html

QUOTE
Immediately following this panic and since, various theories were and have been advanced by financial experts and political economists as to the causes which produced this crisis. Heterogeneous and contradictory financial legislation during the preceding twenty years was held by some to be responsible. The legislation of that period, it was contended, consisted of a series of compromises between a desire to maintain an honest standard of values and an effort to conciliate financial heresies, instead of a determination to combat them. Inelasticity of our currency and the consequent inability of the banks to issue circulation sufficient to meet the demands of their depositors and customers, without an investment of an equal amount in United States bonds, was held to be another cause for the panic, implying thereby that there was a scarcity of circulation at that time. Others still claimed that the inception of panics generally may be traced to currency inflation and the speculation that an inflated currency usually promotes with all its kindred evils.

While all these causes, and numerous others which have been advanced as having had an influence in bringing about the general disturbance that occurred in 1893, the primary causes which led to this panic may be looked for and found in the conditions described by Mr. Lacey in his annual report for 1891, in which he attributed the panic of 1890 to have been due to overtrading, unhealthful expansion, investments in speculative securities and in various forms of corporate enterprises and development in new and untried fields, and in undue expansion of credits by the banks.

Nothing much changes, or so it seems.

A series of financial crises culminated in the great depression of the 1930's. There are fierce arguments about what led to that depression, but it is clear to me that after the war, at least in this country and in America, far greater regulation was imposed on banks and financial institutions than had been the case in the past. This was part of the "New Deal" in the United States which included the establishment of the Securities and Exchange Commission and the separation of commercial and retail banking. That same separation was also implemented in the UK. That is part of the "post war consensus" but it seems to me there was no consensus at all: there was a temporary retreat of the right because the legacy of the great depression left them with no possibility of a return to the unfettered behaviour while the generation who remembered it had the vote.

As ever, people take good things for granted if they have existed throughout their lives: they assume that gains are secure and they become dissatisfied with things as they are: for, of course, there is always a downside to any system. This seems to me what happened and the right seized their opportunity. Deregulation became respectable and under Thatcher (in this country) this was vigorously pursued along with privatisation. The influence of "monetarism" was great and the advantages of "globalisation" were touted all over the world.

What this represented was a return to the situation in the 19th and early 20th century. In the UK banking and financial services were tightly regulated in the 18th century; and "liberalised" in the 19th. The effects of these different approaches seem to me to be obvious because the repeated crises of the 19th century are there for all to see. The current crisis is no different from previous ones, so far as I can tell.

If you free bankers and financiers they turn into crooks. Their activity is not illegal because you have just legalised it. Some of them will step over the line of the law but most won't bother because they do not need to. But for me, if we decided tomorrow that theft was not a crime, I would still see thieves as crooks. There is a basic code of behaviour that is fundamental to the proper working of society and it is independent of the law to some extent.

Given deregulation, the banks and the financiers do what they are paid to do: they make profit. It does not matter what effect that has on the people in any given country, or indeed the world. This has always been true. That is not to say that these people are uniquely wicked: some of them probably do believe in such nonsense as "trickle down". The effects are slow to manifest and it is alway possible to ascribe them to something else. We live short lives and we are not very good at cause and effect if the time lag is 20 years. So we look for causes in the recent past and miss the connections.

But the banks and the financial institutions have taken their opportunities well. They have persuaded very many people that their ideas are correct and, indeed, that challenge to those ideas is idiotic: for a long time it was not possible to even discuss the premises or the likely outcomes: it was obvious that the free market produced the best outcomes and this was effectively unchallengeable. Previously left wing parties accepted this conventional wisdom and are culpable too. Because they, of all people, should have known better. But they were dazzled by the rich and powerful: and some of them were bought.

My granny was scared of debt: and so am I. She used to say that we could not go on like this because we cannot live on debt and taking in each other's washing. That is so obvious that it is astonishing to me that we, as a nation, decided she was wrong. I notice that the governments of other countries in europe sang the free market song: but they did not actually do it to the extent that this country did. Germany and France did not dismantle their manufacturing base on the assumption that we can live on financial services and an expanded (low paid) service sector. They are not suffering the consequences of this lunacy to anything like the same extent. And that is true even given the enormous costs of german reunification.

Government ceded all power to business in this period. That sounds extreme, but that is what "too big to fail" means. It is the antithesis of the free market ideal: they are keen on that when profit is involved but they turn into socialists when loss is concerned.

So for many years people have traded things which did not exist, with money that did not exist, and have taken profits which also did not exist, but which have been made to exist by the bailouts. What that means, so far as I can see, is that we have paid real money to buy the emperor's new clothes.

It is said that we have all enjoyed the virtual prosperity while it lasted. I have seen people setting the generations against each other by suggesting that this is the fault of "baby boomers" who did well for themselves and now wish to pass the costs to their children. This is nonsense. To sustain that notion you have to ignore the worsening position of the poor throughout this time. A great many of the "baby boomers" have lived wretched lives under this regime and they continue to live them. Now we are told those lives must get even worse, as they must pay for the party they did not attend. Divide and rule.

We bailed out the banks: but the mantra that the businessman knows best continues to prevail. So we did not take control of them when we bought them. Odd that. Where we have a majority share we still cannot even set their wages. Don't know of any other situation when the owner of a company cannot cut wages in hard times. Apparently if we do that the bankers will leave and go elsewhere. Apparently the loss of people who are almost unbelievably incompetent would be a bad thing. Go figure. Looks to me like a really good trade union. But trade unions are a bad thing: well when they are for the defence of ordinary working people they are. Not if they are for the defence of bankers or lawyers or other professionals. It is not a bad rule for working people to look to the wealthy: if they have an institution it is very likely because it serves their interests: so get one just like it for yourselves. And that is what a trade union is. It gives the ordinary worker an alternative power base and it works. Yet they were ruined with the collusion of those same working people. It amazes me.

The bright spot for me is that we have been here before: we have seen these problems and we have seen the solutions too. My big fear is war, because many argue that the depression of the 1930's only yielded to the enormous public spending which was attendant on the world war: and while huge public spending has happened without a war it has not gone into infrastructure or into making jobs or hospitals or anything useful at all: it has gone into bankers pockets through bail outs and through exorbitant interest payments on the debts generated by those bail outs. We know what to do: take it off them and put the money into useful things: that will have to happen and it is a question of what you define as useful: for me that is not armaments. It is a choice we have to make.

And if we take it off them what will happen? We are told we will not be able to borrow any more. So industry will not be able to invest and your savings will disappear and other bad things will follow. Maybe they will. But those bad things are already happening and they are going to get worse. We can guarantee the savings of ordinary people: they are a drop in the ocean. We cannot guarantee their biggest savings: pensions and housing equity. But the housing equity is illusory in any case. And pensions are being eroded, so there is not much worse to face on that front either. I do not know what other dire consequences will follow: it is interesting that I don't. There is just a big cloud of threat with nothing very specific being said: an inculcation of nameless fear is not a good way to persuade me that I should listen to these folk. So if there are real consequences for me I am sure that others can say what they are: till they do I am not convinced. But I can see the dire consequences of continuing as we are.
 
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view post Posted on 22/5/2011, 13:58
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I happened to be recommended this documentary on the Greek situation. And I've found it plenty interesting to share. It's in Greek, but there is a subtitle button at the top.

www.debtocracy.gr/indexen.html

It starts off a bit simple: pointing the finger at various problems and players. However, towards the end, the documentary comes up with some more specific and constructive analysis.

Most interesting is the notion of "Odious debt", which has been used in the United States, to get rid of the debts of countries they liked to occupy. The term Odious Debt, applies to public debts, which didn't have the public's consent, nor were used to benefit them in any way. When these terms are met, the obligation is declared illegal. Well, this concept has been copied in Ecuador, to get rid of debts incurred on their population. What happened was not that Ecuador plummeted into horrible decline. Rather, because they didn't have to pay huge, crippling sums in interest, it managed to start growing: A massive amount of money was freed up for health, education, infrastructure.

The interest was paid out of Ecuador's oil revenue. The gigantic debts were given out specifically to subsidize American industries to set up in Ecuador. When these debts were nullified, virtual money disappeared. If there was any reality to it, and if a portion of it wasn't repaid through the interest rates on them, over the years, then the lender suffers a real blow, which is probably going to have to be solved through the American public. People who, all this time, didn't benefit much at all from the operations of 'their' companies in Ecuador. The companies were getting richer, but that doesn't create more jobs at home, or a higher standard of living: these companies are no social institutes and to reward (working) people with undue bonuses hurts your net profits, which is illegal.

Holland has, as far as I know, contributed 4,5 billion euros to the Greek bail-out. That is surprise money: I had no idea we had that kind of capital just lying around. But we're going to get it back, they say. If we don't do it, Europe may collapse, they say. This morning on the radio: 31% of people support the bail out. 37% are against. The rest doesn't know.

We have no idea what's going on with that money and this may very well bite us, when the Greeks are clever enough to stop accepting that they pay for debts which bailed out their banks for no good reason.

But this is no longer corporate loans they'd be screwing: they would be screwing over European citizens. And so it is citizens vs. citizens, while the big fat bone we'd be fighting over has been taken out of the game by the banks.

I think it is inevitable that the Greeks will eventually stop paying their debts, if they take the quality of their lives, and the sovereignty of their nation seriously enough. And so they should.

Meanwhile, the people of Europe should make their nations stop lending to people who do not profit from it. Those are not loans you're gonna get back.

Eat the rich.

QUOTE (FionaK @ 22/5/2011, 12:09) 
I [...] are

Great post, Fiona!
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 22/5/2011, 20:48




QUOTE
That is surprise money: I had no idea we had that kind of capital just lying around. But we're going to get it back, they say.

They dont actually hand over any cash, Iccarus: at least not if the country does not default. That is one of the obfuscating things in all this: it is access to credit only. Virtual money, as you say. However I am not clear whether this means you can spend it twice, or not. Some articles claim it represents "opportunity cost" because you can't: others are far from clear about this but I think you can. It is a balance sheet item only. I think
 
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view post Posted on 15/6/2011, 18:32
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Greek people don't like what is happening to their country.

Obviously, they can't handle reality... :rolleyes: :P

www.youtube.com/watch?v=whH8xpTOidk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEilkHcm2tE&NR=1
(No Pasaran)

"Greek police have fired tear gas at protestors attempting to block off access to the Parliament in Athens. Over 20 thousand angry demonstators were trying to prevent MPs from voting on new austerity measures needed to secure more bailout cash from the EU."
 
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view post Posted on 15/6/2011, 18:59
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http://rt.com/news/greece-clashes-police-protesters/

> "You're describing what sounds like a chaotic war scene. [...] But let's talk about the initiative here, about the European aid package. It's worth billions of dollars, but who stands to benefit from the loan?"
> "I hope you're not joking at the moment because everybody knows in Greece, and even Russia Today knows, and Al Jazeera knows, that the money, all the money they take, all those billions: they just go to derivatives and securities of the banks; they go for the bonds: They don't come to the real economy of Greece. And that we can guarantee; everybody knows that. Even the last civilian in Greece knows."
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 15/6/2011, 20:23




The footage is sad and enraging at the same time. But what can they achieve like that, I wonder?
 
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view post Posted on 15/6/2011, 22:25
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 15/6/2011, 21:23) 
The footage is sad and enraging at the same time. But what can they achieve like that, I wonder?

The civilized thing would probably be to sit at home and contemplate forming a new political party. But when your country is going down the gutter and you've probably already lost your job, or it's extremely likely that you will, along with your friends and family, then staying calm and complacent while awaiting democratic reform is just rather saintly, IMO.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 15/6/2011, 23:54




I don't disagree. I am not going to pretend that democracy is working at present: though it is not wholly lost either, at least I hope not. But I am not in favour of "something must be done: this is something: therefore this must be done"

There is some value in making plain the sheer level of dissent: it cannot be ignored when it is on this scale, and the front line defences have been breached. The powers that be cannot any longer present a vision which denies that dissent; or pretends it only a very small minority of malcontents and disturbed or disaffected people. That is progress.

There is also value in demonstrating that the dissent is not confined to one country; not predicated on national fecklessness or governmental recklessness: a second line of defence for the globalisers: for this is global too, though at different levels for now.

But having said that what more is there? I seem to have seen such footage before. Ordinary people facing police forces and/or armies. Unarmed and unorganised, they stand against trained and well equipped forces. The story we are told is that they never win. Obviously that is not true: that is a narrative which serves the existing rulers. But I think it is is true more often than not, sadly. In the end I think it is the poor and powerless who pay the price: if they riot they pay in blood: if they don't they pay in poverty. But always they die.

You seem to be excited by the technology which allows us to see this in almost real time: though that is not exactly new it is different in that the people themselves can show us rather than the more usual media channels: and that my be a qualititative difference: I think it probably is. You are keen on this as shown in your support for the shadow networks initiative: I am not sanguine about that, as you know.

But what I wonder is this: this technology is new and not yet fully controlled. At the same time I have been thinking about resistance when democracy fails. I have views about when it is legitimate to challenge the rule of law: and I think this may well be one of those times: certainly the people on the streets appear to think so: or at least are nearly there. The violent response will achieve its aim of suppressing dissent: or it will fail and the people will reject the rule of law.

But I seem to see only one form of rejection and it occurs to me that this very technology should give us scope for a new or different response. We have seen that tradional armies cannot win against guerilla armies supported by and embedded in the population. We have seen examples of passive resistance and of "terror", and it seems to me that this is what really worries the existing power. At present they are using it to keep us onside, and to further their ends for oil or hegemony. But it is a tool and it need not be theirs alone

What I am thinking about is what guerilla tactics divorced from violence can achieve: if we look to our masters it seems quite a lot. I am not techie: but they must make their deals through computers, and if they fail there are consequences for their systems: and we the people make them work. There are already "cyber attacks", so this idea is out there already. They do not seem to have much defence as yet: and I am sure that such tactics can be better organised and better targetted if we can develop a fuller understandng of how the system works. We have the means to do that too. For we are legion.
 
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view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 00:20
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 16/6/2011, 00:54) 
For we are legion.

Hah, I just talked to FionaK about the ending of her post. And she didn't know that this very quote was, in fact, part of the slogan of the hacker collective Anonymous:

"We are Anonymous. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us."

Ah... Synchronicity.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 00:41




To be fair, it might be I read it somewhere and forget it: for to me the phrase is biblical and poetical and it is part of the furniture of my mind.

The resonance is interesting though, because as I understand what Anonymous are about it seems to me they are a group who are beginning to act in the way that I was thinking about.

I would be interested in your thoughts about this as a way forward, though. Good idea?
 
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