Europe's emergency aid to Greece, A dual disappointment

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view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 01:04
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 16/6/2011, 00:54) 
What I am thinking about is what guerilla tactics divorced from violence can achieve: if we look to our masters it seems quite a lot. I am not techie: but they must make their deals through computers, and if they fail there are consequences for their systems: and we the people make them work. There are already "cyber attacks", so this idea is out there already. They do not seem to have much defence as yet: and I am sure that such tactics can be better organised and better targetted if we can develop a fuller understandng of how the system works. We have the means to do that too. For we are legion.

More to the content of your proposal here. I think you are right that it could be very problematic for these 'masters' if they would be prevented to use their computers to do deals. But communication through the internet is often 1-to-1 - or at least it could be made that way with intranet or VPN kind of protocols. So, I'm not sure if you can block that. You could make it more difficult, is all.

It does seem that authorities are worried about hackers: people are getting arrested for DDoS activities (Distributed Denial of Service attacks which disable websites).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(gr...cement_agencies

And indeed sites like PayPal have been targeted (after PayPal refused to service WikiLeaks donations) which can be quite problematic. The blocking of informative websites like the cia's is petty in comparison, but it's the same technique.

But on the whole, I am not sure if these kind of attacks are the way to go. More effective is for example the leaking of sensitive information. WikiLeaks is doing a share of that, through whistleblowers and other defectors. But Anonymous actions have targeted information databases, before. The Sony Playstation user database, is one I am aware of. I'd expect the governmental databases to be more secure (I may HOPE so!) and the corporate ones even better (more likely). But top-hackers are known and feared for their wits. It may be that they manage to do some damage.

But that is not the kind of technology most of us can use, yet. DDoS software has been made available and user-friendly (but it is illegal, boys and girls!), so you can use your internet connection and computer power to contribute to those kinds of actions, at the risk of getting arrested at home. There is also software available that makes it hard or impossible to track your IP to your location (TOR), so there's a way to get around that. But, again, that is not so easy. You have to be a bit of a tech geek to participate in these tactics.

When you mention Guerilla tactics, though, there are simple applications available to us normal folk, now, which were not before. Indeed, the revolution in Egypt has been called the Facebook revolution, because people knew when and where to mobilize in a matter of minutes, through social networking sites Facebook and Twitter. That is very very fast. The police also have access to this information, and that is a potential downside. But if we can have some kind of isolated cells of instant messaging, then you could mobilize actions at lightning speed and disperse relevant information as it occurs. I think this is possible through things like google groups or facebook groups, and it's unique to our time and potentially powerful.

It is sophisticated. But you'd have to know what you are targeting. I think this kind of awareness isn't present just yet. People are just awaking to the idea that they have a voice in politics and that they have to take matters into their own hands, if they want to prevent the rich and powerful to exploit the rest of us. And so they re-invent democracy through massive protest. But there is a difference: "NO PASARAN", reads a banner in Greece. And underneath it, a smaller sign reading: "DEUTCHE ARBEITER AUFWECKEN" [sic] (translation: Wake up, German workers)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13773817 (see photo 2)

Everybody can access the lessons of history on the internet, and disseminate the new lessons immediately to a world-wide audience. That, too, I think, is new and valuable.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 01:09




I don't know enough about this: but I am fairly sure that financial transactions and share dealing are not done one to one. And I do not think that this is confined to software possibilities either. Hardware is not immune to attack, presumably: and all their base are belong to the cleaners, in the end :P
 
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view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 01:17
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QUOTE (FionaK @ 16/6/2011, 02:09) 
I don't know enough about this: but I am fairly sure that financial transactions and share dealing are not done one to one. And I do not think that this is confined to software possibilities either. Hardware is not immune to attack, presumably: and all their base are belong to the cleaners, in the end :P

:lol: haha.

Financial transaction and share dealing are usually the most secure networks on the market, and (I am lead to believe) they are tested and developed severely against hackers and with hackers. Attacking the hardware could be a possibility, but the locations of the data centres might be hidden and/or distributed, with database copies spread over several countries. I don't know much about these things, either, but it seems exceedingly difficult at best, from where I am.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 16/6/2011, 01:29




Don't think it would be easy, Vninect. But it is very early days ...
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 18/6/2011, 18:52




http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1mKUBR/media...rescue_plan.jpg

Seemed to reflect the views of some of the Greek people we have heard from: or it might be a picture of an actual event - who knows )
 
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view post Posted on 29/6/2011, 14:03
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Greece Barricades: 'We don't owe! We don't sell! We don't pay!'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQB8WbayfHs

Seems to reflect the earlier video's proposal: invalidate the debts.
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 29/6/2011, 15:08




BBC just reported that the greek politicians have passed the austerity measures
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 29/6/2011, 16:38




www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13956331

This is a curious article. I am confused about the size of the deficit which is reported to be about 340 billion euros, most places. According to this piece Greece owes $ 66 billion to the banks. Who has the rest of the debt? Does anyone know ?

The fact that a default on one does not give other creditors power to demand accelerated repayment is interesting too. The primary fiscal deficit (tax raised does not cover outgoings) seems to me amenable to internal measures like restructuring the currency, as discussed in another thread. I cannot see how the measures proposed will achieve that because there can be no tax if there is no income and the austerity measures have already boosted unemployment to 16% overall: and much more than that for young people. Are the people who are expected to buy Greece going to pay tax? They don't usually, so why would they?
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 1/8/2011, 05:25




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/3...rity?CMP=twt_fd

Although the situation in Greece has not been so widely reported lately I was interested to find this update. It seems that the protest is strengthening and that the people who are suffering most are finding new and creative ways of registering dissent.

 
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view post Posted on 1/8/2011, 09:52
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There was a movie here a while ago about a bunch of "chavs", who decide to stop paying for everything, when their gov sustenance is stopped. That seemed pretty absurd. But it seems their fictional action has been surpassed by entire blocks of the population in Greece doing the same thing. Neat!
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 1/8/2011, 23:34




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/0...oans?CMP=twt_fd

An anectdotal piece outlining some of the kinds of "national debt" the population is being asked to pay for out of money they haven't got
 
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view post Posted on 21/9/2011, 23:54
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Meanwhile, in Greece: More cuts, more taxes, less jobs, less pensions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/se...g?newsfeed=true
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 23/9/2011, 02:16




From the link in the post above:


QUOTE
Elias Mossialos, a Greek government spokesman, said: "This choice sends a message to our partners and the markets that Greece both wants and is able to fulfill its commitments and remain at the core of the eurozone and the EU … It is the fundamental and strategic choice of the country to return to fiscal independence as an equal member of the eurozone, achieving a primary surplus as soon as possible."

From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/2...ters?CMP=twt_fd

QUOTE
"The government doesn't have the mandate to pass such measures," said the leftwing leader Alexis Tsipras, in parliament. "They have stolen the mandate from the people." A series of missed targets has fuelled popular anger.

Who or what is Greece?
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 24/9/2011, 11:50




www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14977728

This is a sort of flow chart which purports to show what happens depending on which choices the greek government and the international "troika" make.

To be absolutely honest I cannot see the dilemma. All the adverse consequences of repudiating the debt seem to fall outside Greece and all the adverse consequences of continuing on the current course seem to fall inside it. Whatever you think of the nation state that is what we have and the Greek government's responsibility is to the Greek people. No contest.

Clearly I am missing something
 
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FionaK
view post Posted on 25/9/2011, 12:30




www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/2...s-suicide-crime

This article is not neutral, though it gives the appearance of objectivity. The clues are in some of the words used. The public sector in Greece is described as "bloated": by what criteria, I wonder? On what reasoning? It is described as "profligate" too. Again neither reasoning nor justification is given for this view. It is a political statement smuggled in as reportage.

The article says that the greek population is 11 million and there are 800,000 public servants. Would I be right in thinking that is 7.2% of the population? 7 people in every 100 to provide all the medical care; run the hospitals; provide education at all levels; assess and collect taxes; run public transport; collect the rubbish; care for the elderly and the orphaned; police the country and defend it; etc. I do not know what is publicly run and what is privately run in Greece: but it is reasonable to infer that most of what is traditionally public in the UK is also public in Greece, given the descriptors. So what is the "right" proportion of public servants in a country? We are not told in this article which so confidently asserts that 7.2% is too high.

According to an article in the Daily Mail ( a right wing paper generally opposed to public provision) in March 2010 the UK's public sector accounted for 40% of GDP in 1997 and rose to 53.4% in the year the article was written. The european average was 50.4%.


Of course those figures are in no way comparable with the numbers given in the guardian article. For that we can turn to the office of national statistics, maybe? In a report written by what appears to be a special interest group campaigning to promote the right wing aim of reducing the public sector it states the ONS figure for 2009 as 6.039 million employed by government: they claim that is a substantial underestimate.

http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2009/1...government.html

If those ONS figures are correct, then in 2009 about 9% were public sector workers in the uk. That was a rise attendant on the recession of 2008, of course: and there would be a furher rise in 2010 presumably. The blog claims a higher figure of about 7 million, or 10.6%

Or we can look at the ONS figures for 2008 as reported in The Guardian, a paper I am rather more inclined to believe. That also uses official statistics and sets the bar much higher: 20.4%. And that was a fall over the earlier figures because of the cuts which were being made. Within that figure there are huge regional variations, and that reflects the extremely centralised nature of the british economy: the so called "North/South divide"

www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/20...ap-by-authority

Obviously we can play with these figures all day. Comparable statistics are not easy to come by and people choose figures which suit their argument. But I am not seeing any compelling reason to accept that the greek public sector is "bloated" or "profligate". Perhaps the reasoning is given elsewhere and I missed it. At present it looks like "polly wants a cracker", to me.

The right will no doubt retort that the public sector is even more "bloated" in the UK, and that proves their point. But a mere ideological assertion is not enough: so what is the right number, and why is it the right number?

Meantime the Greek people have seen their incomes drop by 50% and they are being asked to surrender to even more austerity. How would you get on with a sudden and permanent cut to your income of 50%? With an unemployment rate of 16%? With increased taxes on that reduced income? Well you are probably one of those strong adult types who would recognise that it is necessary to make sacrifices for the common good and you would just make the best of it? I am not. Because, like many greek people, I do not believe one word of this. I do not think it is for the common good: I think it is for the good of bankers and plutocrats who must be protected from any such fall in their incomes: though 50% of a £1 million bonus is a whole lot better than 50% of a minimum wage, if it is what you have to live on. And of course, for the bankers, it isn't: they still get their "bloated" wages as well
 
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